it was never used on the individual or that they brought in a weapon, never used on the individual. the judgment was made then that there wasn't anything there that was improper or illegal with respect to -- >> do you think what they did, now that you've heard about it, do you think what they did was wrong? >> chris, my sort of overwhelming view is that the enhanced interrogation techniques were absolutely essential in saving thousands of american lives, in preventing further attacks against the united states, in giving us the intelligence we needed to find al qaeda, to find their camps, to find out how they were being financed. those interrogations were involved in the arrest of nearly all of the al qaeda members that we were able to bring to justice. i think they were directly responsible for the fact that for eight years we had no further mass casualty attacks against the united states. it was good policy. it was properly carried out. it worked very, very well. >> so even these cases where they went beyond the specific legal authorization, you're okay with it. >> i am. >> one spe